BOXE - Tópico Oficial dos Grandes PESADOS

[jeffmonson200 0]

estilo do joe e algumas caracteristicas

[jeffmonson200 0]

a espn simulou alguns duelos

How would Ali have fared against other heavyweight greats?

How would Muhammad Ali have fared against the likes of Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson? Graham Houston explores.

Muhammad Ali might have been the greatest heavyweight of them all, but that doesn't necessarily mean he would have beaten every other heavyweight champion.

It's true that styles make fights, as Ken Norton -- who is not considered a great heavyweight -- showed in his three tough, close fights with Ali.

Size comes into play, as well. Some of the modern heavyweights would have been much bigger than Ali.

Ali's greatest assets, of course, were speed, reflexes and mental and physical toughness. His former physician, Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, once remarked to me: "Ali showed you can be tough without a face that looks like it's been through a meat grinder."

Ali also had a quality that the great ones possess in that he could find a way to win. Could he have found a way to beat everyone, though? Let's look at mythical matchups between Ali and five heavyweight champions.

For the purposes of this exercise, we will take as our model the Ali who destroyed Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams in three rounds in what is generally considered the most dramatic demonstration of his punishing artistry.

Ali vs. Jack Dempsey

The size disparity would have been pronounced in this contest. Dempsey was really just a cruiserweight by today's standards, at around 192 pounds, which means he would have been giving away some 20 pounds to the Ali of the Cleveland Williams fight.

True, Dempsey annihilated Jess Willard and Fred Fulton, both 6-foot-6, but these old-time fighters had nowhere near Ali's speed and fluid boxing skills -- there was simply no comparison. Dempsey had problems with the smart-boxing Tommy Gibbons and, admittedly late in his career, was twice basically outclassed by the scientific Gene Tunney, the long count of the rematch notwithstanding.

Verdict: Ali vs. Dempsey would have been a mismatch, with the old Manassa Mauler being confused, outsmarted, outboxed and outclassed.

Ali vs. Joe Louis

I consider Louis the greatest of all heavyweight champions in terms of physical tools. He was a superb fighting machine. At about 6-foot-2 and 200 pounds, he would have been the smaller man in the ring, but he would also have been the puncher in the fight. Louis might have been able to put heavy pressure on Ali -- moving in behind the jab, getting off with sharp, hard hooks and right hands, especially if Ali went to the ropes. One must think back to Louis' first fight with the smaller Billy Conn, though, when he was clearly outboxed for 12 rounds before winning in the 13th. Ali would have been able to avoid sustained punishment by moving this way and that, and his snaking left jab and crisp rights, backed up by some well-judged combinations, would have scored points.

Verdict: Ali by decision in a grueling fight.

Ali vs. Rocky Marciano

Marciano won the famous computer fight against Ali, but the real thing would have been very different.

one doubts Marciano's durability, heart, fantastic conditioning and heavy hitting. He would keep coming, and he was almost impossible to discourage, but the Brockton Blockbuster would have been a cruiserweight today, under 6 feet and weighing less than 190 pounds. Ali would have towered over him.

I think Ali would just have been too big, too fast and too skilled for Marciano, who usually needed to win by attrition, boring forward and breaking down the clever boxing types. Marciano would not have had the chance to inflict the damage necessary to slow down Ali, and it's easy to visualize the Rock having to take a lot of punches and perhaps suffering cuts. (True, the aggressive, shorter Joe Frazier beat Ali in 1971, but Frazier applied a faster type of pressure than Marciano, while Smokin' Joe was also a bigger man physically, about 15 pounds heavier than Rocky.)

Verdict: Ali by decision or late stoppage.

Ali vs. Mike Tyson

Would Ali have been able to weather Mike Tyson's early assaults?

This would have been a fascinating fight. Tyson -- the 21-year-old version -- had the Joe Frazier type of attacking speed, and Tyson's punches were fast when he was at his best. Although he would have been giving up five inches in height to Ali, he was more powerful physically, and at about 218 pounds he would have been a bit heavier.

For the first four, five or six rounds, Tyson would have given Ali a desperate struggle. He would have been going at him hard, and Ali could not have avoided all the shots. Tyson's left hook might well have put Ali down -- certainly Ali would have been rocked and staggered. Ali's many admirers would have been very, very worried.

Eventually, though, Ali's cool boxing brain and his character would have pulled him through. He might have been obliged to hang on to get through some rough moments, but Ali's superior will and greater mental stamina would come into play. He would probably talk to Tyson: "Boy, you're getting tired now -- you're in trouble."

There is a good chance that Tyson would have started to unravel as Ali came back at him with jabs, right hands and combinations, in effect bullying the bully. In the later rounds, Tyson would have been wishing he were somewhere else, while the crowd would have been joyously chanting: "Ali, Ali, Ali."

Verdict: Ali by decision or late stoppage

Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis' stiff jab and lethal right hand might've been too much for Ali to deal with.

Size, styles and psychology would all have played a big part in this fight.

Lewis, while not nearly as fluid or as fast as Ali, was a very big heavyweight at 6-foot-5 and around 245 pounds. Ali would have been the small man in the fight.

Ali's taunting of an opponent, the undermining of the other man's confidence, might not have worked against Lewis, who had a sort of professional remoteness.

Ali would have needed all his skill, moving Lewis around, seeking to get off first with the jab, darting in to score and sliding out, scoring in bursts. He did this and made it look easy against 6-foot-6 Ernie Terrell, but Lewis was a much bigger-framed, technically superior fighter and clearly a bigger puncher than the long and lanky Terrell.

Lewis' long-reaching left jab could have given Ali problems, and his right hand would have been a threat throughout the bout. Lewis, steady and calculating, would have been confident in his size and power and wouldn't have been intimidated. He could have timed his left hand, enabling him to match jabs with Ali. Lewis might even have outjabbed him, as Ken Norton was able to do.

Ali would have had to take some solid right hands, and his fake wobble wouldn't have rattled Lewis, who would simply have waited for an opportune moment to unload another thudding shot.

It's doubtful that Lewis would have lunged off-balance in his attempts to land the right; he would have held the center of the ring and waited for Ali to take risks.

In terms of style, and always bearing in mind the size difference, I think that the much bigger Lewis might have been completely wrong for Ali.

Verdict: Lewis on points in a tactical match without many thrills.

fonte

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3535766

[jeffmonson200 0]

esse link aqui tem uma explicacao mais condizente sobre o confronto

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

[jeffmonson200 0]

ali foi uma lenda mas tinha falhas no jogo dele tambem como qualquer outro grande nome do esporte....isso eh ate normal

pra mim o unico desses que eu apostaria de olhos fechados que seria capaz de bater o ali seria o teofilo stevenson alem do frazier

[brunolobo 0]

concordo. ali era mais físico, mais baseado em reflexos, velocidade e em sua resistência a golpes sobrenatural. louis era mais técnico.

outro bom artigo aqui, esse pendendo mais pro ali:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/news.php?p=5901&more=1

vendo as lutas aqui agora, não sabia que o louis tinha sofrido tanto na mão do walcott (lutador semelhante ao ali mas bem menor)

e tb concordo que o lewis tinha jogo pra complicar pro ali. mais um que merece a ser citado aqui, com certeza um dos melhores pesados de todos os tempos. pra mim ele só teria problemas contra caras com grande punch, visto que seu queixo não era dos melhores. por exemplo, acho que ele sofreria na mão do foreman se essa luta tivesse acontecido nos anos 90. mas contra o ali o jogo casava realmente.

Editado August 21, 2014 por brunolobo

[Victor- SV 0]

Não acredito que Louis nocautearia o Ali, mas não acho que o Ali conseguiria ser dominante contra o Louis. No fim das contas acho que seria uma luta apertada na decisão talvez com uma vantagem pro Ali na maioria dos rounds pela maior evergadura, talvez o jab dele funcionasse mais e velocidade. Vejo Ali acertando muito jabs, sendo pego por alguns contra-golpes que o Louis era bom nisso mas Ali ficando de pé, e uma decisião apertada no final.

Editado August 21, 2014 por Victor- SV

[jeffmonson200 0]

Não acredito que Louis nocautearia o Ali, mas não acho que o Ali conseguiria ser dominante contra o Louis. No fim das contas acho que seria uma luta apertada na decisão talvez com uma vantagem pro Ali na maioria dos rounds pela maior evergadura, talvez o jab dele funcionasse mais e velocidade. Vejo Ali acertando muito jabs, sendo pego por alguns contra-golpes que o Louis era bom nisso mas Ali ficando de pé, e uma decisião apertada no final.

a vantagem se da pura e simplesmente pelo quesito movimentacao

o boxe no periodo do louis era mais estatico se comparado com a época do ali

pelo jogo de pernas e pela movimentacao talvez ali levasse vantagem

[brunolobo 0]

estilo do joe e algumas caracteristicas

opa, só agora que parei pra ver o video. muito bom mesmo, (apesar dos textos explicativos aparecerem em milésimos de segundo, penei pra conseguir pausar neles rsrs) adoro esses videos analisando lutadores antigos. a maioria tinha essa movimentação na medida certa, que não era vistosa como a de um ali ou holmes da vida, mas muito eficiente. outra coisa é essa postura meio inclinado pra trás/pro lado, muito eficiente pra defesa. alguém sabe dizer pq essas técnicas não são mais comuns?

[jeffmonson200 0]

vendo as lutas aqui agora, não sabia que o louis tinha sofrido tanto na mão do walcott (lutador semelhante ao ali mas bem menor)

sofrer mesmo....penar de dar dó foi na mao do rocky marciano

aquilo ali nao deveria ter existido

[brunolobo 0]

sofrer mesmo....penar de dar dó foi na mao do rocky marciano

aquilo ali nao deveria ter existido

pois é, aquilo ali foi a versão 1 de tyson vs holmes

[Magapi 0]

Considerando o que vi por videos do auge do dois eu fico com Ali.

[Victor- SV 0]

outra coisa é essa postura meio inclinado pra trás/pro lado, muito eficiente pra defesa. alguém sabe dizer pq essas técnicas não são mais comuns?

Mais de lado né, eu acho que a gente vê sim, Hopkins, Mayweather mesmo. Ficar de frente, muito frontalmente com as duas mãos cobrindo o rosto nunca foi hábito dos americanos, pode reparar.

[Victor- SV 0]

a vantagem se da pura e simplesmente pelo quesito movimentacao

o boxe no periodo do louis era mais estatico se comparado com a época do ali

pelo jogo de pernas e pela movimentacao talvez ali levasse vantagem

Com certeza, seria a grande questão, pq além do Ali ser muito móbil era bem grande né!

Eu acho que tinham caras que se moviam rapidamente pelo ringue na época do Louis, Jeff.. Billy Conn mesmo, teve o Tommy Loughran que era meio-pesado mas chego ua ser pesado embora não tenha enfrentado o Louis realmente.

Enfim, concordo que o Ali levaria vantagem na movimentação e talvez fosse o fagor decisivo mesmo.

Editado August 22, 2014 por Victor- SV

[brunolobo 0]

Mais de lado né, eu acho que a gente vê sim, Hopkins, Mayweather mesmo. Ficar de frente, muito frontalmente com as duas mãos cobrindo o rosto nunca foi hábito dos americanos, pode reparar.

não é só de lado, é inclinado mesmo, meio torto

vejo o hopkins as vezes fazendo isso, mayweather acho que é mais baseado no giro. nas lutas antigas é bem comum de ver caras assim, louis por exemplo tava quase sempre assim. hoje é bem mais raro. dos poucos que lembram, são os que tem a melhor defesa da atualidade (bhop e mayweather)

[Victor- SV 0]

não é só de lado, é inclinado mesmo, meio torto

vejo o hopkins as vezes fazendo isso, mayweather acho que é mais baseado no giro. nas lutas antigas é bem comum de ver caras assim, louis por exemplo tava quase sempre assim. hoje é bem mais raro. dos poucos que lembram, são os que tem a melhor defesa da atualidade (bhop e mayweather)

Mas na prática, na luta mesmo, eu não vejo essa inclinação pra trás tanto, só a postura lateral mesmo.

Acho que é simples, faz de você um alvo menor. Ficar frontalmente ao adversário vocÊ tá mostrando mais do seu corpo todo, pra ele bater. Solta uma combinação em alguém de lado e solta uma combinação em alguém que fica mais de frente pra você e tem uma diferença por questão de lógica..

Ward também, tem essa postura! Os americanos, bons de defesa, o Toney também se for ver era alguém que tinha essa postura.

Já viu George Benton?

Editado August 22, 2014 por Victor- SV